Edit both layers equally idea

Don’t know if there’s desire for this or any mileage in it but this thought just occurred to me.

Often with dual layer synths, players want to load both parts with the same patch and then make subtle offsets on the two layers to create some movement and thickness. When doing that, it’s also occasionally useful to be able to manipulate both layers at the same time if you want to have a parameter be exactly the same on both layers.

Just wondering if there is any scope for this kind of functionality to be incorporated into the Super Gemini.

To enable it, one could press both layer buttons together (or hold down one layer button and then press the other).

Could then have both layer buttons lit to indicate that alterations would apply to both layers equally. For the buttons section (arp, chorus etc) it would be clear that both were being simultaneous edited.

The question would be to determine how the two sets of sliders would work. Would one be disabled so that only say the top layer controls affected the two layers equally. Or would changes made on either layer take precedence? (Since the controls always jump to the value as soon as a slider is moved, this wouldn’t cause an issue as far as I can see.)

This function wouldn’t necessarily work in manual mode, I guess. However, if only one layer were in manual mode, it could also be used to control the other layer that isn’t in manual mode without conflict. Even if both layers were set to manual, parameters such as arp, chorus, etc could still be simultaneously manipulated on both layers.

Another way: If switching on this proposed dual control by holding one layer button down while pressing the other, this could actually be used to determine one layer as a master and the other as a slave. This would be indicated by one layer LED being steadily lit and the other layer LED flashing. Then the “master” layer controls would always adjust both layers equally but the slave layer controls would only control its own layer.

The function modes suggested in this whole post would be exited by pressing either of the layer buttons.

@udo-audio

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@DDS please can you record and upvote this useful suggestion thanks

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Thanks!

Have edited for clarity and to add a small extra bit of explanation.

Think both ways could work together:

Press both layer buttons together (both layer button LEDs light): changes made on either layer’s sliders will affect both layers equally. Changes to arps, chorus etc will apply to both layers equally.

Hold either layer button then press the other (held button lit, pressed button flashing): the held button’s layer becomes the master, the other becomes the slave. Changes on the master layer’s sliders affect both layers equally. Changes on the slave layer’s sliders affect only its layer. Question is what happens to the arps, chorus, etc here. I’d probably say changes should affect both layers equally.

Press either layer button to exit back to standard control of just that layer.

(I’m still mulling over how things would work in the various permutations of manual mode and will edit when I’ve thought it through.)

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Funnily enough, I was thinking of this the other night, whilst experimenting with sound design, I thought of a mode both layers could be edited simultaneously, exactly like you described. I like the way you utilised the layer buttons for this. You have some great ideas Sir!

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Thank you, that’s very kind of you. There’s still a bit of thinking to do on this until it’s fully baked.

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Slaved/copy manual mode idea

This is part of my thinking through the manual mode permutations for the idea in this thread (which I’m still doing). However, this could potentially work even as a standalone feature:

Hold MANUAL UPPER and tap MANUAL LOWER.

MANUAL UPPER’s LED is steadily lit; MANUAL LOWER’s LED flashes (or is unlit if slave function is instead indicated on the LAYER button as described in the previous posts).

Upper layer is now in manual mode and the parameters of both layers immediately jump to the values represented by the positions of the upper layer’s sliders. i.e. Upper layer settings are copied to the lower layer. Lower layer is now slaved to the upper layer.

Moving sliders on the upper layer changes the value on both layers equally. Moving sliders on the lower layer affects only that layer.

Press either layer’s MANUAL button to exit. I guess pressing MANUAL UPPER could keep the upper layer in manual mode and place the lower layer back into preset mode (but with no change to the parameter values?). If instead pressing MANUAL LOWER, it could put the lower layer into manual mode (parameters jump to values of the lower layer’s sliders) and keep the upper layer in manual mode.

(The whole process would be similar but reversed if beginning by holding MANUAL LOWER and pressing MANUAL UPPER.)

This could still tie in with the master/slave scheme outlined in the first couple of posts with its corresponding indications on the LAYER button LEDs (steady for master, flashing for slave).

This is still a work in progress.

@udo-audio

@udo-audio the user guide states that one can press the MANUAL buttons or the PRESET button to return to preset mode. Is that how it is supposed to to function? Apparently pressing MANUAL does not currently exit manual mode for that layer. Is this a bug? (I don’t yet have an SG so cannot confirm.)

Is that description lifted straight from the S6 user guide? I ask because I do also wonder how the PRESET button would know which layer to exit manual mode from in the case where both layers were in manual mode. Would it exit manual on whichever layer’s LAYER button were currently lit?

Hi all, I did flesh out the remaining considerations about this idea on paper a couple of weeks ago but didn’t have time to type it up. Just done that now and hope that all the formatting is preserved. Here goes:

Edit - I’ll mention this for the sake of clarity - each bullet point is a separate sub-scenario branch of the “state” heading under which it appears, that is, the bullet points are not sequential steps.

What happens to master/slave/dual controls when the LAYER buttons are pressed in the various on/off states of the MANUAL buttons?

From the state where both MANUAL buttons are ON:

  • Pressing both LAYER buttons together causes the LED of both LAYER buttons to flash to indicate that at the moment neither has been chosen as the master and that a choice needs to be made. (Having the LEDs flash 180 degrees out of phase with each other might make that even more obvious.)

    As soon as a slider is moved, that layer becomes the master and its LAYER button becomes steadily lit; the parameter value on both layers jumps to the position of the moved slider. The other layer becomes the slave and its layer button continuously flashes. The slave layer’s MANUAL button LED goes off (or flashes?) because now one of its parameters is not in sync with the position of the slider, ie. it is no longer in manual mode.

  • Holding one LAYER button while pressing the other causes the held button’s layer to become the master. The master layer remains in manual mode. The slave layer either has its MANUAL button LED immediately go out (or flash?) or the layer remains in manual mode (MANUAL LED remains lit) until a slider on the master layer is moved. (Remember, a slider moved on the master layer would force a parameter value change on the slave layer, meaning that parameter would no longer match the slider position on the slave layer, so the slave layer is no longer in manual mode.)

    (Whether the slave layer’s MANUAL button LED flashes or not depends on the current implementation of what happens in general on Super Gemini whenever a MANUAL button is pressed off. Does it go back into preset mode and reload the preset from memory or does it retain the current settings in the edit buffer?)

From the state where both MANUAL buttons are OFF:

  • Pressing both LAYER buttons together causes the LED of both LAYER buttons to be steadily lit. Moving a slider on either layer affects that parameter on both layers equally.

  • Holding one LAYER button then pressing the other layer button causes the held button’s layer to become the master (indicated by a steadily-lit LAYER button LED). Moving a slider on the master layer controls that parameter on both layers equally. The pressed button’s layer becomes the slave (indicated by a flashing LED in the LAYER button) - moving its sliders only causes changes to parameter values on its own layer.

From the state where MANUAL UPPER is ON and MANUAL LOWER is OFF:

  • Holding the UPPER LAYER button then pressing the LOWER LAYER button causes the UPPER layer to become the master (indicated by a steadily-lit LAYER button LED) and the LOWER layer to become the slave (indicated by a flashing LAYER button LED). Changes on the UPPER layer (master) affect both layers equally. Changes to the LOWER layer (slave) affect only the LOWER layer.

  • Holdng the LOWER LAYER button then pressing the UPPER LAYER button causes the LOWER layer to become the master (indicated by a steadily-lit LAYER button LED) and the UPPER layer to become the slave (indicated by a flashing LAYER button LED).

    The UPPER layer’s MANUAL button either goes off (or flashes?) as soon as a slider on the LOWER (master) layer is moved forcing a change on the UPPER (slave layer). This is because the parameter on the slave layer no longer matches its slider position and so the layer is no longer in manual mode.

From the state where MANUAL UPPER is OFF and MANUAL LOWER is ON:

  • As above but reversed.

How do the MANUAL buttons behave when master/slave/dual function is already active?

From the state where both LAYER buttons are ON (which can only happen when neither MANUAL button is lit):

  • Pressing MANUAL UPPER causes parameters on the UPPER layer to jump to the actual positions of the UPPER layer’s sliders.

    Next there is a choice of 3 implementations:

    1. The UPPER layer becomes the master (causing the LOWER LAYER button LED to flash as per the above scheme) but the LOWER (slave) layer’s parameters remain where they are;
    2. The UPPER layer becomes the master (causing the LOWER LAYER button LED to flash as per the above scheme) and the LOWER (slave) layer’s parameters also jump the the positions of the master layer’s sliders;
    3. Master/slave mode cancels altogether.
  • Pressing MANUAL LOWER - as above but reversed.

  • Pressing both MANUAL UPPER and MANUAL LOWER together

    1. either causes both LAYER buttons to flash (indicating that currently neither is assigned as master and that a choice needs to be made as above)
    2. or cancels master/slave altogether.

From the state where UPPER LAYER is lit (i.e. is the master) and LOWER LAYER is flashing (i.e. is the slave):

  • Pressing MANUAL UPPER causes parameters on the UPPER layer to jump to the actual positions of its sliders. There is an implementation choice to be made as to whether the parameters on the LOWER (slave) layer should also jump to the slider positions of the UPPER (master) layer or not.

  • Pressing MANUAL LOWER causes the parameters on the LOWER layer to jump the the actual positions of the LOWER layer’s sliders.

    Moving sliders on the LOWER layer layer would only affect the LOWER layer (as it would still be the slave).

    As soon as an UPPER (master) layer slider is moved, the parameter would jump to that value on both layers; the LOWER (slave) layer’s MANUAL LED should go off (or flash?) as its parameter value would no longer match its slider position.

From the state where LOWER LAYER is lit (i.e. is the master) and UPPER LAYER is flashing (i.e. is the slave):

  • As above but reversed.

@udo-audio @DDS if you think there might be mileage in these ideas, please let me know and I can go back and try to collate the entire thread into a single document.